Talk:Homunculus

is there going to be one based on the seven virtues instead of sins?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_virtues

No. Sins are cooler, obviously. XP CorbeauKarasu 02:24, February 11, 2010 (UTC)

Should we add to the part about the lesser homunculi that they bleed green blood? It was shown in the latest episode of Brotherhood, when one was injured by Scar...Gerokeymaster 22:04, April 5, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, and they also happen to look like Father in his huge form (in which he was opening Earth's Gate and 'eating' God). Kiadony 15:38, April 6, 2010 (UTC)

You know for the homunculous table at the bottom of homunculi articles? well i was thinking that we add hohenheim to that list since he is also a homunculus. that could clear up alot of confusion about the topic.

Well, the thing is, Van Hohenheim is not a Homunculus. He's a Human and a Philosopher's Stone, but not a Homunculus. He was born human through natural means and had his human lifespan and alchemical power augmented by the stone and the Gate. He can't even really be considered immortal, when one gets down to it. Bona fide Human. CorbeauKarasu 00:28, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

What is the wiki's view on the capitalization of 'homunculus' and 'homunculi'? The way I see it, if these words are referring to the race, they should be capitalized, for example "The Homunculi are a sentient species." When referring to just one homunculus or a group of homunculi, I think it makes sense to not capitalize the word, for example "That homunculus in named Pride." This seems to be the way literature does it with 'human' (this happens a lot in science fiction and fantasy where there is often a multitude of races), but most users on the wiki prefer to always capitalize these words. Does anyone know how this works? In other words, are words like 'human' and 'homunculus' always proper nouns, never proper nouns, or can they be both?--Full Metal Fan 23:00, August 26, 2010 (UTC)

Well, the way I've been doing is this - when referring to the idea of a homunculus, or rather the idea of an artificial human the word does not need to be capitalized, but when referring to one or more of the seven Homunculi cast as villains in the series, it's capitalized. Lust is a Homunculus; the Mannequin Soldiers are homunculi. CorbeauKarasu 02:07, August 27, 2010 (UTC)

why would more then 7 not be technically possible

75.30.96.195 20:03, October 7, 2010 (UTC)

In the 2003 anime, they're created everytime human transmuation is attempted. It's never stated why they're named after sins, and since I doubt other alchemists have tried human transmutation more than 7 times across the entire world in decades, there could be 100 homunculi at a single time if Dante chose it. But then what would she do for names? Tommy-Vercetti 14:21, May 5, 2012 (UTC)

The Image
We should try Father's Flask Form as the main image since its inspired by the real life concept of Homunculus like being a small dwarf inside of a flask

Nah. The page is more about the antagonists themselves than about the basic concept of a homunculus. CorbeauKarasu 05:20, March 16, 2011 (UTC)

But I don't think one picture of Father's flask form could hurt though. He does literally "define" the page I think.Tommy-Vercetti 15:02, March 16, 2011 (UTC)

I asked it in the image article itself, but I think here is more appropriate: the first image used in this article are official (created by the studio or something like that)?Spcmn 07:22, September 25, 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm not really sure what you're asking, but all of our images are official, as per our Image Policy. Fullmetal Fan 07:45, September 25, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, the title image (with them all bathing in blood) is the official artwork related to Brotherhood, I think they had a wallpaper with this image, too. --kiadony --talk to me-- 09:03, September 25, 2011 (UTC)

2003 section
This page has changed since I last viewed; why does the 2003 section have this incredibly huge, detailed synopsis and multiple character analysis, while the manga/2009 series wasn't touched?

Usually it's always the other way around, and just can't believe the first anime series Homunculi were given such long-winded explanations. Especially considering how poorly written that entire series is. Tommy-Vercetti 15:28, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

The reason for that would be that I am far more familiar with the 2003 series than the 2009 series. I've only read about 4/5ths the way through the English-version manga, and haven't seen a single episode of Brotherhood.

Also, I disagree with the "poorly written" remark about the series. I thought the subject matter and direction the 2003 series took was a lot more mature in terms of character development and subject matter--which is not to say that the M/09 characters/plots are in any way inferior. I just preferred the 2003 ones, personally.

As for the "long-winded", I admit that. I was just trying to improve the section, and I thought that including details about certain homunculi here and there would help to provide a more encompassing picture of these characters as a whole (plus I tend toward a more formal, essay-type format). I apologize to those who feel a lot of the material should be put elsewhere--but again, I thought that this page was also meant to summarize the characters' roles here collectively so that readers who just want a generalized idea wouldn't have to read each character's page individually to find out what happened to them.

My bad. Damaijin 21:55, May 19, 2012 (UTC)

Can't agree with it not being poorly written or especially being "mature".

When I think the most cliched kind of writing or characterization I can imagine, something you'd see in a romance novel for example, I think, "Hmm, I can't make this character deep or give them any interesting motivations, so I'll make them want to be human."

And mature? It's so cliche, that's the theme in kiddie shows. "Aww, the big bad monster wasn't really bad, he just wanted to be human."

And you can literally tell from the get-go before the decided to fully go ahead and rewrite it, before when they were just sort of following the manga, the homunculi (just as they are from the manga) would never say "I want to be human", but then, uh-oh, they need new motivation. Oh, they want to be real humans. I'm surprised they didn't write in Jiminy Cricket too and a fairy godmother. Tommy-Vercetti 22:11, May 19, 2012 (UTC)

By "mature" I meant darker. The characters in the 2003 anime are subjected to much more of a mind-f*ck than those in the M/09 versions. The manga did deal with the atrocities dealt to people in their world, but the first anime dealt a lot more with the aftermath and the effects it had on those people, both psychologically and events-wise.

Also, the writers knew from the get-go that the anime was not going to follow the manga. The manga started in '01, so they knew that Arakawa wouldn't be able to dish out chapters fast enough to feed an entire television series, and they started out with that in mind.

As for the Jiminy Cricket thing, their desire to become human wasn't based on morals or a conscience, it was purely selfish. They wanted to be somebody; they wanted to have a life and be treated just like everybody else. They were brought into this world by arrogant Alchemists who then turned around and labeled them "imperfect monsters" and "mistakes/sins" even though those monsters had nothing to do with what they were. In order to attain their goal, they were ruthless, so yeah, selfish, not moral.

Also, I think the homunculi who wanted to be human ridiculed humans because they couldn't see how obviously or easily they were being manipulated. (Ironic, considering they were being manipulated too...)

Damaijin 12:13, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

Standard powers
Hello; just want to ask/confirm something. When has one of the standard abilities been confirmed to be heightened speed? I just noticed that it says this on each individual Homunculus' page. The only Homunculi I have seen display speed are Wrath and Sloth. I know this is minor, but I'm just checking so the pages aren't slightly misleading as to the Homunculi's level of capability.

&quot;I no really understand this language! Bye-bye!&#39; - Lin Yao 08:51, May 3, 2012 (UTC)

{C}Yeah, that's a mistake if they say that. I don't think Wrath even has the power of heightened speed. He's fast, no doubt, but so are all the other Führer candidates, so his speed is probably more from a lifetime of training than being a homunculus. Fullmetal Fan 09:05, May 3, 2012 (UTC)

The guidebooks state that all Homunculi have more speed and strenght than a regular human, due to the Philosopher Stone, but of course that not all of them have the speed and strenght of Sloth, for example. Turdaewen 20:11, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

WikiNavigation
I think it would be better if you put the seven (or eigth) Homuculi's names on the WikiNavigation under "Homunculi". ReignBough (talk) 11:41, February 25, 2013 (UTC)

taboo the worlds greatist sin people who do this dont always survive. alchemy = science. human kind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return to obtain something of equal value must be lost that is alchemys first law of equivelent echange in those days we really belived that to be the worlds one and only truth. the pholocefers stone those who posses it no longer mind in equivelent echange in alchemy whit out sacrifice we searched for and we found it...

artifical beings dolls urobourus tattos heart - pholocerfers stone all = humunculusFullmetal alchemyresearch (talk) 03:57, October 14, 2013 (UTC)

hohenhiem of light
most were created by father or humunculus dwarf in the flask who made hohenhiem a human pholocefer stone


 * How about finishing either the manga or 2009 series? It's obvious you haven't. Tommy-Vercetti (talk) 13:44, October 14, 2013 (UTC)

Hohenheim technically isn't a homunculus.
Ok, so is hohenhein REALLY a homunculus?

I mean, he was a (HUMAN) slave at one point. And "Father" just tricked him (and the king of Xerxes) by instead of making the king immortal, he just took some of Hohenhein's blood through the transmutation circle wich gave him a "human body", and there was enough left over to make Hohenheim immortal. So is he a homunculus like Wrath and Greed or just a philosophers stone? Or just an immortal guy who dosn't want to be immortal/helps people BY being immortal? (Ok, now i'm just confusing myself)50.76.127.81 20:27, November 8, 2013 (UTC)

To me, he isn't a homonculus, but when I first saw him regenerate after father attempted to take out the philosopher stone he was given, it came to a conspiracy to me and I didn't know for sure whether if he was or not. He barely gets into fighting and doesn't have to use it as much, but there is a exception: He uses almost all his power fighting Father and he makes a giant massive wall that prevents Pride from using his shadows. But when I saw Edward Elric punch Hohenheim in the face, it didn't prove to me that he was a homonculus. Proven to me, I know he isn't, because he isn't named for a sin if you read the page about Father, who is apparently the main antagonist of brotherhood. He assisted Father and when Father manipulated the king to immortality, it was instead given to both Father and Hohenheim. Father is not initially human, Van Hohenheim is initially a human, not a dwarf inside a flask or anything similar to that, Hohenheim is a human.

The answer is NO, he was initially born human in Xerxes. If you read the page further on, and the whole thing, then you might understand. He wanted to eventually die with Trisha Elric so they could be together, but because of the philosopher's stone inside him, it would be impossible for him to be with Trisha, which was why he wanted to be mortal instead of immortal.

I hope this does help you.

Limexialia (talk) 06:25, November 9, 2013 (UTC)Limexialia

TRIVIA
In trivia we have a section where says: Lust was incinerated to death by Roy Mustang to defend Riza Hawkeye and Alphonse Elric. Where is the evidence of lust sin in her death? The fact that Roy is a Womanizer (and that could ironic) or from Bible where the lustful people were burned for eternaty?


 * Most likely the latter. CorbeauKarasu (talk) 15:14, January 4, 2014 (UTC)

The Fabrication of a Homunculus (FMA 2003) ?
There are a few key aspects of the fabrication of a Homunculus in the 2003 series which are implied with visuals but never directly stated.

Everyone who attempts to attach a soul during Human Transmutation loses body parts: Izumi lost her uterus, Scar's Brother lost his genitals, and Edward lost his left leg. It appears this is a component of soul transmutation in general, as Edward loses his right arm when attaching Alphonse to the armor and Dante (in the elderly body) is literally ripped in half upon moving to Lyra. Tucker and Majhal both conducted human transmutations without losing appendages, but failed to attach souls to the results. This implies the body loss is equivalent exchange for souls, not the construction of the flesh doll. Knowledge of the soul's location circumvents this cost: Dante was able to conduct soul anchoring on condemned prisoners in Labratory 5 without losing limbs because she was moving intact souls out of their original bodies (destroying them in the process) and anchoring them to armor.

 Each time an alchemist attempted human transmutation, the body part lost was relevant to the person being resurrected. Izumi's uterus nurtured her baby before his still birth. Scar's brother was lovers with the woman he tried to resurrect. The most prominent memory flash of Edward and Trisha is her placing a bandage on his knee (hence why he lost his leg from the knee down). He lost his right arm to anchor  Alphonse because that was the arm he used to reach out to his brother when Trisha's transmutation failed.

I have a hypothesis: partially successful human transmutations look for the soul of the original individual and attempt to anchor it to a newly fabricated body, just as Hohenheim and Dante anchored themselves to new bodies. This is what creates the mark of the Ouroborus; it is the soul anchor to the flesh doll. The idea of the Ouroboros tattoo being a soul anchor is corroborated by Dante when she removes Gluttony's near the end of the series; it stips him of all emotional attachment and transforms him into a mindless monster driven only by the impulse of his body. This also implies the tattoo is key to transmuting the homunculi into human beings; Dante has studied their creation enough to know its purpose and dangle the promise of humanity as a carrot for her minions.

 A human-transmuting alchemist inadvertantly extracts the soul of the deceased from their own body, removing the body parts which were closest to the deceased individual being reconstructed. Such is only a fragment of the necessary material, however; there isn't enough soul left as some has passed through the gate and some has dispersed into the surrounding world as heat loss due to entropy. As such, more soul energy needs to be pulled into the circle from the gate; a gate child (soul trapped in purgatory or an unborn, perhaps?) joins with the flesh doll during the transmutation and passes the spent body parts into the gate as payment. Hohenheim stated that homunculi cannot transmute because they come from beyond the gate: in fusing with the materials for the flesh doll the gate child could be giving it properties from WITHIN the gate (hence why homunculi are so susceptible to alchemy; they're attuned to the gate). It is likely that only flesh from Amestris can open the gate to conduct alchemy, though, which is what prevents the homunculi from using it (Wrath uses Edward's limbs, and Alphonse uses Edward's blood from the seal as anchors to open the gate).

As for the Homunculi not attaining human form before consumption of the red stones, the equation of the alchemy wasn't balanced for the life variable. Ironically, both Tucker and Majhal accounted for this: Tucker used animal lives in the construction of his new Nina (hence why she was able to attain a humanoid shape on the first transmutation) and Majhal sacrificed young girls to the circle for his dolls.

Partial souls shaping the appearance of the flesh doll also explains a few issues with Hohenheim and Envy: body theft might gradually transmute the new host into a copy of the occupying soul (hence why Envy's true form resembles the current Hohenheim when the two are not genetically related). The soul fatigue causing rot could also be a consequence of this--insufficient energy to subconsciously transmute the body causes involuntary systems to fail, driving the host to decay. Since the two types of alchemy are similar, one's presence supports the other: there's no reason for a malformed flesh-doll to resemble the person it was intended to recreate unless the mark of the Ouroborus (the soul anchor) has recorded and is transmitting that data. Likewise, body theft is just another form of human transmutation (only using a living body as materials) and would logically follow the same rules.



The above hypothesis fills several of the troubling plot holes in the 2003 series:

 [1] Why not every failed human transmutation results in a homunculus (Majhal didn't spawn one, as there was no soul to anchor to the flesh doll),

[2] Why Wrath (2003) can use alchemy (He has a partial soul bound to his body, and Edward's limbs give him human appendages with which to execute it, whereas Alphonse has his entire soul and Edward's blood [from the seal] with which to execute it),

[3] Why failed human transmutations can survive long enough to be 'reformed' with partial philosopher stones (The new Lust AND Sloth),

[4] Why Envy's true form resembles Hohenheim in his current body,

and [5] Why Greed felt a soul anchor to armor might be possible by studying Alphonse.



 This might be an appropriate point of trivia or conjecture for this page and/or the pages of the characters involved.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">75.86.138.63 05:28, May 9, 2016 (UTC)