Talk:Envy

Just creating this for someone. Haloman333-My Head Asploded! -| My Doomsday Theory 14:38, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

smexy Envy
Omg its heeere! thanks for making it! Envy's my favourite charecter ever!! he's so awsome! i didn't know he liked chocolate parfaits =D thanks for making that--FunFun In The SunSun 22:38, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

18 = pre-mature?
um just asking but in the anime doesn't Dante say, "He was the son I had with Hoenhiem that died prematurly of mecury poisoning. " is 18 premature? just asking.--FunFun In The SunSun 23:03, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Of course 18 is premature. If you had a child who died at 18, fresh out of high school (I'm adjusting this to modern situations obviously) before they had really gotten to live or enjoy the majority of their life, you'd call their death premature, wouldn't you? It's not like you'd say, "Oh, he was eighteen, he lived a long, ripe life, and it was his time to pass." Color.me.envious 04:49, May 21, 2010 (UTC)

Image
I dun't think the startin' image at the top is needed. Kaihedgie 17:10, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Doesn't make sense
Most of everything in the series makes sense ( kind of ) except the entire thing with Envy being Hohenheims son.

How can Envy's real form look like Hohenheim if Hohenheim's son was born 400 years ago. Hohenheim's bodies cant's last that long so it really doesn't make much sense. In one episode it shows them creating the Philosopher's Stone centuries agoand Dante gave Hohenheim some other guys body and they were already together. It implies that Hohenheim had the same body centuries ago as he did in the anime because him and Dante would have had a child ( Envy ) around that time centuries ago, but, he wouldn't have switched bodies that soon. It doesn't make much sense.

I hope that made sense. Kariya Yoshida 19:45, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

True Form
There appears to be some confusion on the matter, so I'll offer this: Envy's big, ugly monstrous form is his("its", whatever) true face. It's his natural form, the form Father and he other Homunculi recognize. Envy was likely born looking that way. But the little parasite form is new, a recent state occurring only when Envy is out of souls to use, something that has never happened before his in his entire existence. I would suggest calling the monster his true form and the worm his "powered-down" form or "weakened" state. Do you disagree? CorbeauKarasu 10:32, March 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't really know, but I think his insect form is true, too, in a way. Roy calls it his 'real form': manga and this makes sense sinse envy is an ugly, pathetic emotion. Kiadony 13:14, March 20, 2010 (UTC)

I always imagined Envy to have been born from Father as that parasitic tadpole form, actually. It was traumatized being born in that "ugly" form, so it spent its entire life taking other forms. Makes sense.. right? > 3> Also, I'm a bit shaky on this, but isn't his monster form made up of the used bodies of the people from Xerxes? He would have needed to go around and absorb them into his body as the parasite form (like he did with the mindless Homunculi in Central). Not to mention I just can't imagine poor Father spewing out that giant thing from his body. Nub888 23:13, March 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Xerxes was gone before any of the Homunculi were born. They are all made up of Xerxesian souls and Envy couldn't have absorbed them after his birth. In his monster form, he always yells "don't look at me", suggesting that he's ashamed of his hideousness and Greed alluded to this form when he taunted him. It's his monster form that he tries to escape from by taking on more attractive human forms. True, he also hated being looked at with all his souls removed, but that was, i suppose, his hatred for being looked down upon by humans. Since the only Homunculus to be born with one soul appears to have been Wrath, I think it's a safe bet to say that Envy was born in his big, soul-laden body.CorbeauKarasu 23:37, March 20, 2010 (UTC)

Um, do you remember the way new Gluttony was born? He emerged from Father's chest (?), and he was small. If Homunculi are born like that, it is more likely that Envy was originally small. Dunno about the others, though. Kiadony 08:08, March 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, we don't know if he was really "born" that way. It seems to me that what we saw was Gluttony's new form gestating on Father's body. The anime shows him with a bit more autonomy, but in the manga, all that's sticking out of Father's body is Gluttony's head and shoulder. The rest was still inside, gathering enough soul energy to emerge. It brings up an interesting point, to be sure. It seems a bit awkward for the Homunculi to emerge fully formed from Father like Athena from Zeus, but it certainly isn't impossible. It just doesn't seem feasible to me that they would emerge in some sort of larval state without all their souls intact. They're fueled initially by Xerxesian souls, after all, which come from inside Father. It comes down to semantics, basically. Our ideas differ, but since the argument is what to call the forms, we're dealing with a distinction between terms like "true", "basic", "original". Envy, with all his original souls, is that large beast. That isn't a disguise or a powered-up form. It's what he looks like without his masks on and he's looked like that for hundreds of years. But the smaller form is what he looks like when he's all by himself in his body, the form that he takes when his immortal Homunculus nature is destroyed. I think the larger form should be called his "true" form and the smaller his "basic" form, but if you think that his worm state should be called his "true" because it's him stripped of all his power, then perhaps the larger form should be called his "original" form because it came before all his disguises. CorbeauKarasu 17:26, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, tricky one. Both forms are 'true' in a way. We don't know for sure how he looked at 'birth'. Now that I think of it, the parasit form should really be called 'weakened' ('Envy in its weakened state' or something as an image name) and the monster form 'true'. But not 'original' since we're not sure about it. Kiadony 18:21, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

It
It? I find the wording a bit awkward, plus there are times when he is mentioned as well, causing confusion. I'm going to change it to he.

Unleashed state.
I thought this picture that I added was a bit better than the last one, even though the thumbnail is a bit smaller.

Nevermind, I figured out how to make it bigger. :P

If you like it, keep it, if not, revert it. Whatever you think is best, I "personally" just thought it was a better image to use. Tommy-Vercetti 20:21, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

Box picture
Does anyone else think that this picture would be much better to use for Envy's box?



I don't know why it wasn't used in all honesty, but I really hate the current one. Yeah, it does show more, but it doesn't really matter does it? Not to mention how blurry it is because it's zoomed in.Tommy-Vercetti 15:37, July 2, 2010 (UTC)

.. Can you get that TBS mark on the top right off? Cause I know there are other sources you can get it from that won't have that. Same goes for the Sloth picture. It's just a small thing that irritates me.Nub888 23:28, July 2, 2010 (UTC)

I can probably find a raw sometime tomorrow.

Will you keep it if I find one without the logo?Tommy-Vercetti 23:55, July 2, 2010 (UTC)

I personally like the old one better, because it's just all around more explicit in showing the character.. and to me just looks better, but.. whatever. A big step towards considering it would be to not have that annoying logo on the side, that's for sure. Nub888 09:21, July 3, 2010 (UTC)

I just think the original picture is low in quality because it's zoomed in. We don't even need to see Envy that much because there's a shot right down the article of him, showing the exact same amount.

That kind of shot was apparently fine for every other Homunculus, so why is it not for Envy? Anyway, I changed it, logo-less this time. See what you think.Tommy-Vercetti 20:34, July 3, 2010 (UTC)

That's fine. As long as we're putting up their shots from that sequence, mind getting the one of Gluttony? Don't wanna make him feel like an outcast.Nub888 05:03, July 4, 2010 (UTC)

Find it, sure, but I think it'd be a mistake to automatically place those pictures into the character boxes just because they're part of a set. I prefer the older Envy picture, but I may leave the current one because it is a nice picture. Personally, I don't think the current picture of Wrath or Greed does either character justice. And the picture of the 2003 Envy altered slight details, which is why I changed it to a newer picture. CorbeauKarasu 05:14, July 4, 2010 (UTC)

Mercury Poisoning
I would like to edit the trivia bullet about the cause of Envy's death. It's a little unfair to Dante and Hoenhiem, and implies a level of selfish disregard inconsistant with their attempt to bring their child back from the dead.

It is not unusual that an alchemist would have been exposed to mercury, as achemic traditions include the roasting of cinnabar to create philosopher's quicksilver, a step toward alkahest, and ultimately the philosopher's stone. The incomplete red stones and the toxic red water have been linked to the use of cinnabar as one of the stone's major base ingredients. Envy's death was likely caused by exposure durring the creation of the philosopher's stone, rather than by drinking straight mercury as a cheap alternative to using his parent's stone.

Also, in reference to Envy's androgynous apperance, there was originally some mention of mercury being considered the hermaphrodidic element. I suppose it has been removed, but I personally believe this was a valid point. AnkhAnanku67.142.163.31 04:03, October 12, 2010 (UTC)

Confusion about Envy
Um, guys? Hate to break it to you, but Envy is a girl. According to every FMA fanbook, she's a girl. She even sounds like a girl, doesn't she? Plus, in volume one, she describes herself as "young and cute". Most guys wouldn't call themselves that. And doesn't she wear a skirt? I'm pretty sure guys don't wear skirts. Well, not in FMA.

Haha, where did you pull that information out of? A bad fanfic? Envy is genderless, plain and simple.

Even if you go by its human design alone, look at the chest. Muscular with absolutely no sign of clevage whatsoever. Is it a very feminine looking male? Absolutely, but that's the point, to be androgenous.

Envy in the original storyline is genderless, it's never made clear because it's not supposed to be, but if you count the first anime series, Envy is male. To be blunt, it's anything but female. Tommy-Vercetti 21:23, May 18, 2011 (UTC)

Actually, ALL homunuli are genderless, to be honest. Simply because they are not even human to be man or women: they are homunuli! And, in the manga, they're the living personifications of sins, so they portray an appearence solely for the purpose of characterising that particular sin and have no defined gender. So, even though, for example, Lust LOOKS like a woman, she's not: she's "The Lust" and, as such, a combination of all cravings for earthly sensations (which is not even limited to sexual acts, mind you)... and so on and so forth. (And I'm sorry to bust many boys bubbles by saying that, but it's the truth XD)

Envy is, therefore, the "green little monster" that possesses people and "whisper things to their ears", not a girl, not a boy...

That being said, Tommy is absolutely right to say Envy is androgenous and is supposed to remain so, due to it's character. And about the voice and the clothes: the clothes have little meaning in that sense, since that's not even Envy's true form. And the voice, if that was the case, Ed and Al would also be "girls" since they're both dubbed by female voice actors in the original version. ¬¬'

Such a discussion of "Envy's gender" is, therefore, at least for me, a doubt typical of people who don't actually know FMA all that well and certainly not a discussion level-worthy to an FMA wiki. Turdaewen 22:56, May 18, 2011 (UTC)

I actually somewhat disagree with that, Turdaewen. About the Homculi not being fully human. While, not in reproductive sense, obviously, but, I think they are equipped with everything. Remember how gory Roy's fight with Lust was? She had all the organs a human does, but yet, why would she need blood? But she bled. Why should even need a heart? Not sure about a stomach, but probably there too, when they don't eat. My biggest point is with Greed. Think about how many times he said "I want women". He doesn't want money just to have it sit in a pile and adore it. He wants to use it, probably the same with a woman. I just don't see how he could possibily not be equipped and want a woman. Granted, it could be for status alone, but I think that's kind of missing the point.

But, there's also things that contradict that. Lust for example, her gloves, especially with those stupid nodes, look like part of her body, rather than actual clothes. You can't tell really tell if they have clothes or if the "clothes" are just parts of their bodies. Greed's "tight black shirt" looks like just his chest, and it shares those same nodes. But, if you watch Brotherhood (not sure about the manga, I can't recall) when Roy burned Lust one final time, the back of her dress was ripped, so I don't know. I think Arakawa made it like that to illustrate one fact "The details of Homunculi genitalia doesn't matter"

But I think it would be foolish for them to not be equipped with that, especially when it seems Greed's brain is located down there. Tommy-Vercetti 13:23, May 19, 2011 (UTC)

I don't mean in terms of having "human like bodies", Tommy, cause they obviously do. But, for me, what categorizes is not the 'appearence', but their "substance". Homunculi are proud of "not being human" and, even though Lust may have all the 'parts' and even being able to have sex with a human if she wanted to, that wouldn't make her a woman, cause in order to be "a woman", you have to be human first, which means: having a human soul and, recurring myself to theosophy, "having a human monad", which no homunculi has. They're creatures from the Portal of Truth (or at least part of). In my understanding, manga homunculi have no 'human' portion other than the souls they carry in the Philosopher stone. For me, they're what Medieval Alchemy states: elementals trapped by alchemists to a body for learning purposes.

So, the true question here is: "what is a human?", cause, if we count that being a human is having a 'Human body' than, ok, Homunculi are human. But the fact, for me, is that, they having the ability to 'replicate' a human body in all it's biological aspects doesn't make them human, since they don't have a human soul nor a human spirit. And that's is vital to the story because, in the end, the 'saga' that Ed goes through is exactly about understanding he's human and 'having a human spirit' makes him earn for 'bigger things' than mere survival and power and that this is what sets him apart from all other creatures of the world, and not his ability to 'make alchemy'.

In other perspective, you could also say they're not male or female cause you cannot atribute that quality to a sin: "Lust" is not a female sin, just as well as "Gluttony" is not a male sin. IF we could atribute a gender to them, they would all be "male", since they're a part of a "male soul" (from Father), but I don't think that's accurate either, cause I don't count Father as being male in the first place (his original form is a black ball inside a flask). If Hohenheim was a woman, the Homunculus would have assumed a woman's body and that would not make him "female" for that.

I think Lust has a female body only for the purpose of representing her sin, the same of, for example, Envy being the "green monster". And if being a dog-like creature represented "Lust" better, that would be her form. In the end, I only call "Greed" a 'he' and "Lust" a 'she' for convenience purposes (since their 'form' is of a human male and female), but I really don't attribute any gender to them. Turdaewen 13:49, May 19, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I get what you're saying, but the fact that they do resemble either a man or woman, does technically give them at the very least a physical, discernable gender. Even with Father, because he's in Hohenheim's male shell, I'm sure it came fully equipped... he just has no use for it. Tommy-Vercetti 13:57, May 19, 2011 (UTC)

I get what you mean... I just think it's complicated to state in that sense, cause it can make things confusing for somem cause it makes people want to fit homunculi in one gender or another, like "if Lust is a woman and Greed is a man, what that makes Envy?", you know? Turdaewen 14:06, May 19, 2011 (UTC)

Look, I see what you're saying, Tommy, and it makes sense. However, like I said, Envy is a girl according to every FMA fanbook (fanbook, not a fanfic), so that means she's probably a girl. As for our knowledge of the anime, that is 100% irrelevant, as even a person who has watched it for years can make mistakes. Either way, the fact still stands that every fanbook says she's a girl. I respect other people's opinions, so I don't mind if you disagree with me, However, until I see proof that Envy is not a girl, I'm sticking to my opinion. Also, you're right Tommy. Apperances don't matter. If you need an example of guys that look like girls and vice versa, watch Loveless or almost any other anime. And regardless of whether they're humans or not, the Homunculi still have the physical traits of a guy or girl, so technically, they have genders. May 19
 * Inhuman things can have gender, after all. Male animals and such. I always figured the Homunculi were exactly like humans but "evolved" in a sense - since Lust put it that way. The only thing that confused me was whether or not their black clothing counted as part of thier bodies, which seems to be the case and is weird. And even when someone's physical sex corresponds to a particular group by way of biology, the idea of gender identity is a shaky topic that hasn't been (and may never be pinned down). Males who identify as women are referred to with the pronouns "she" and "her", after all. I'm not going to make a judgment call on how to refer to Envy. "He" seems fine to me, though "it" is likely more accurate. If the articles can be written fluidly without referring to gender, that's great. But, the way I see it, whether or not Envy's body carries any sort of gender, the Homunculus itself appears to recognize itself as male...or at least not as a female. But then, maybe I'm just being myopic. CorbeauKarasu 16:44, May 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * I just think refering to homunculi in general as a male or female sort of pointless (even because the definition of gender would be connected to a notion of reprodution and we have no idea how and even if homunuli reproduce. Without it, definition of gender makes very little sense, unless we're talking about social contructions of gender, which would be even farther off from homunculi as we are right now).
 * But my main concern is making fans confused as to actually start thinking of homunculi as 'human' when they are, in fact, not and to sort of influence the idea of homunculi in the manga with the homunculi from FMA 1 in mind (as being a sort of doppelganger of a real person). If we take into account the original concept of the homunculi in Alchemy, it would be something closer to what we called "Deva" in the Budhist traditions (or Kamis), which would put them not as an 'evolved' human beings, but as a parallel evolutionary line altogether (and that's why I mentioned earlier a comparison between Homunculus and an Elemental). I think it's easier to think them as something independent of humans, for understanding purposes than to try and 'compare' them with humans. If the creatures of the portal really do have any sort of gender, its unclear and we may never know of it, but what we CAN be pretty sure is that, even if they have their own genders, it's not like human gender (which means they cannot be man or woman) just as well as a female dog is no woman.
 * We call them "he" or "she" for convenience and due to their physical appearence, and I see no problem with that, but I just believe that stating them as one thing or the other a dangerous area, and to state they're "woman" or "man" just plain wrong. Turdaewen 17:46, May 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * We call them "he" or "she" for convenience and due to their physical appearence, and I see no problem with that, but I just believe that stating them as one thing or the other a dangerous area, and to state they're "woman" or "man" just plain wrong. Turdaewen 17:46, May 19, 2011 (UTC)

Look, I don't want to argue with you, Tommy. I totally understand what you're saying. I agree that fanbooks aren't always right and that they screw up sometimes. I used to have one that made a mistake, though I can't remember what it was about. Anyway, I'm just stating my opinion. I don't mind that you don't agree with me. I don't expect you to anyway. I really don't even mind that you called me an idiot. If you really have debated this kind of thing a lot, I see why you may get mad. You have free reign to call me whatever you want. However, I'm just stating my opinion. In my opinion, Envy is a girl, because of what I've seen, heard and noticed but I'm 100% open to the possibility that she isn't. The reason I believe the fanbooks is because I have no clue what Envy is, and I originally thought she/it/he was a girl. I guess Envy could be considered genderless if that's how you want to think of it. I see why you would think that. There isn't exactly a lot of proof as to what he/she/it is. Plus, it kind of has guy and girl characteristics. Because of this, I choose to have an opinion. It's not meant to influence anyone else's opinion or views. It's just how I see things.You're free to disagree with me in any way you want. Sorry if I got you mad.
 * I absolutely love this. "Offer me proof definite"
 * I've debated idiots like you on topics far more important the genders of cartoon characters and you always pull the same thing. "Despite the countless amounts of discernable evidence, until I see PROOF POSITIVE, I'll continue in my own theory, despite the fact that it has absolutely no solid proof at all"
 * Typical, typical, and boring.
 * I love that just because you see a "fanbook" that automatically makes it gospel as well. I remember when I was a kid, I used to read "fanbooks" of my favorite characters from my favorite shows. There was one that was so lazy, it didn't even proofread and mixed up two characters. But wait, THAT MUST MEAN THAT ALL ALONG THEY REALLY WERE DIFFERENT IN THE SHOW!!! BECAUSE THE FANBOOK SAID SO! RIGHT?!
 * You're an idiot. Tommy-Vercetti 23:40, May 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * You're an idiot. Tommy-Vercetti 23:40, May 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * You're an idiot. Tommy-Vercetti 23:40, May 19, 2011 (UTC)

What I really want to know is, why do you hold such merit to this fanbook? By definition doesn't "fanbook" mean "a book made by fans"? Meaning, it's not "official", probably by some third party company. Yet, for some reason the actual official anime isn't good enough? I think you just want to believe that Envy is a girl for some reason and nothing, despite countless attempts to prove otherwise, and even offering examples, is good enough.

Regardless, this article will not be changed, nor will anyone here ever think of Envy as female. So, you can keep thinking it if you want, but it's not going to change anything on this wikia. Tommy-Vercetti 00:55, May 20, 2011 (UTC)

I told you. I used to have a fanbook that made a mistake, so I know they're not always right. And my goal isn't to change anything on here. Even if it was, I'd be focused on the hes in the main article being changed to its since that's apparently what it is. Regardless, I really couldn't care less if Envy is a girl or not. I've said what I think, and I've been contradicted, mainly by you. I don't mind though. If anything, I'm glad that you don't mind saying that you think I'm wrong. I respect your opinion. All I ask is that you respect mine. And the examples and stuff you've said make a lot of sense. There's no way to be sure what Envy is. I guess until I can be 100% sure, I'll say Envy is an it. I still have an opinion, though. Just respect it, alright? Also, and correct me if I'm wrong, I do't think the anime ever gives a clear definition of what Envy is.

The first anime shows Envy was actually a son of Hohenheim, so a man... the manga is very clear about Envy being "androgyne" and a monster, so, not a man, nor woman. The same in FMA:B, aside from the fact that FMA:B shows less details than the manga. (see what I was talking, Corbeau? A 'necessity' of trying to "fit" thing as 'one or the other'. As if even though there's no direct answer to it, it means is if it HAS to be one or the other.) Turdaewen 14:12, May 20, 2011 (UTC)